A new high for Genie prices?

[Gavin McArdle]

I attended an auction yesterday where a Genie was amongst the sale items, the car has been known to the Club and the South West area for some years, it has changed hands a couple of times recently. I had a good look at the car and would say that it was 95-98% complete but in need of total restoration. It would appear that the cills area may have been repaired but not knowing by whom I would have wanted to examine them. The top rail under the rear parcel shelf was still original so almost certainly would need replacing. All the cabin internals needed repair/replacement, the bodywork appeared free of stress cracks but needed repairs in places, the bonnet catch was attached to the scuttle and was breaking away but all the glass was there and in good order. The engine was a later Capri/Granada version (4 pulleys and side dip-stick) it was started and seemed very sweet, the transmission was not tested. The car was claimed to have been prepared for MOT but time prevented presentation for said test. From my experience as an MOT tester from many, many year ago I would have been surprised if it passed, for example the seat belts looked very tatty but I would not expect the mounting bolts to unscrew easily if at all to enable replacement.
Following spirited bidding the selling price for this car which will give it's new owners plenty of spannering enjoyment? £4500 +buyers premium of 15% (+Vat) a total of over £5300!
Are we now seeing 3ltr cars beginning to follow the prices of GT's? Does this mean that an up and running car is now worth more than £5 or £6K?
Hope so as it should mean fewer cars either being scrapped or languishing under dust sheets because there has been no value in restoring them.
Gavin

[sonofgilbern]

On reading the above link it make me wonder why some people renovate or keep classic cars.
The idea that cars are rescued for money or profit is not new and if a reward is given for blood sweat and tears then that’s not so bad. but to wonder if the price will rise because the auction price are high and your motive is money then you should think why am I in this club.
When somebody bids on a car and becomes the owner, should we think "that a high price" or a "price is a steal" or should we celebrate that another car is hopefully on the road for restoration.
As for the car passing or failing an MOT that should be left to a licenced MOT CENTRE and not guess work. As for things needing replacing because its original make no sense. I did my apprenticeship as a fabricator welder and can tell you that steel has a long shelf life when it comes to structural integrity.
I know the people who bought the car and it was not out of the thought of money it was sentimental value they had in mind, as they are the daughter and son in law of Mr Friese, who happens to be my late father.

[Blackpool Plastic]

Mr Friese

I am with Gavin on this. A rise in values of 3 Litre cars will mean that fewer are scrapped and more are likely to be renovated. Something we all want ? Perhaps it is time that " sentiment " moved in their favour to redress the discrepancy with GT prices ? After all their chassis rusts just as dramatically and the body shape is, well .......... a matter of personal preference ??

Any classic car is best purchased on it's merits, not who owned it previously be it the nobility or other celebrities as owners try to seek these associations to hike the sale price. Nevertheless it is great that your sister has bought the Genie and her sentiment is understandable. I would have done the same.

As to Market Value ( not price which can be anything high or low ) an Auction can be the best arbiter provided the lot is publicised as there is open competition. However, if the successful bidder and underbidder were both motivated by sentiment, then is the achieved price the " right " one ? What annoys me as an auctioneer of houses many years ago is the iniquitous Buyers Premium, a fashion adopted from the art market to enrich auctioneers and cause confusion in the market. Sorry, end of rant !

On the subject of rust, again I agree with Gavin and this is from personal experience. Cill ladders are for the most part hidden and can't be properly assessed without cutting off the lower outer fibreglass cill. I have fashioned removable panels concealed behind a stainless steel finisher. A great shame that Gilbern chassis were not galvanised. The same goes for the TVR I have too. You are probably right that our chassis are surprisingly strong despite large bits having disappeared.

Finally, my view is that GOC membership is open to all whether you buy out of sentiment or to make money ( unlikely with present values ) and ranges from owners of money no object restorations to tinkerers like me !! Just enjoy the cars and being a member .

[R_D_Olivaw]

There are many reasons to buy a car, many of which get us into trouble. Several years back I was looking for a car similar to one I had previously owned, when along came my old car. From an economic standpoint it was the last car I should have bought, but it was my old car and that was something no other car could be. That car is still with me and gives me a lot of enjoyment. It sounds like this was the same for Mr. Friese's family. The car may not be perfect, but most things can be fixed and I am sure the car is in the right hands to ensure it gets done. As for the price, you often have to pay over the odds to get what you want, but it doesn't mean everyone else will pay the same.

[Gavin McArdle]

I have thought long and hard before replying to Mr Friese's post as I do not want to start a 'tit for tat' but I must correct some points.
Firstly I made an appraisal of the car in question, it was my opinion, but I speak as a time served Motor Vehicle Engineer and a once MOT tester.
I am not sure which part you suggest would not need replacing even if it is original, I am assuming it was the tube over the rear axle that I mentioned. If you know anything about Gilberns at all then you will know that this thinish walled tube is open ended with the open ends immediately over the rear wheels so that all the water spun up enters and rots out the tube from both inside and out. This tube also carries the rear suspension top mounts so not only does it rust it also suffers from stress fractures. So to say that a 50 year old piece of untreated mild steel will not need replacing is naive verging on the stupid!
I have not queried the price paid or whether it made economical sense, rather I asked whether the perceived increase in values would mean that more cars were either restored or passed on to someone new who would restore it? Rather than cars being left to rot either because the owner had neither time nor money and the parts such as engines or rear axles was worth more than the complete wreck.
As for suggesting that one should not imagine whether a car would likely pass an MOT ?? From your words I assume that the car now has a valid certificate, with no more spanner work needed? If so well done but I would be surprised.
I would say it is virtually impossible to make a profit out of a restoration and later sale, I certainly spent more to restore my car than it would currently fetch. I have no intention of selling it!
The final point about why I am in this club? That is an insult! I have been a fully paid up member of the GOC for more than 30 years! I did not join until long after my car was first taken off the road as I did not know there was a GOC. I could certainly saved a lot of money if I had not joined until I needed spares.

[sonofgilbern]

Hi,
In reply to the last comment by Mr McArdle. I wish to point out several things, that I do know a lot about Gilbern cars as it was and still is part of my life. Visiting the factory when I was young with my brothers and sister, seeing the Ford engine being bench tested and my father bringing home both the GT and the Genie. When I started work for a local company Morgan Marine (run also by my late father) as mentioned I did my apprenticeship in fabrication/welding, the company itself designed and built fibre glass buildings and used a lot of techniques and material used in the Gilberns from the chassis design to the aluminium hockey stick section that held the door cards and the carpets in place. I myself worked on buildings (steel) for both MOD, British telecom and other major companies and at one time built a trailer that was to be tested for Automobile handling by a car manufacture. Now as for the cross bar which holds the rear suspension, when I stripped my GT and examined this item I found it to be structurally sound with none of the failures you mention although granted this will not be the case for every car but just as I had been taught when I started to work ‘if in doubt get a second opinion’ which I did and that second opinion was given by my father Bernard, he duly examined said item and preformed a few non-destructive tests and passed it, so in reply and I quote ‘that a 50 year old piece of untreated mild steel will not need replacing is naive verging on the stupid!’ is in fact ridiculous in itself as all parts and areas on a car being renovated should be examined and dealt with on a part by part basis and to replace something ‘just’ because it is old is foolish. If you wish to suggest that I am stupid then feel free but I do take exception that you imply that the gentleman who founded the Gilbern company and designed the car that you now own was also stupid.

And by the way the genie passed its MOT with the minimum of work.